Wednesday, February 28, 2007

Someone Needs to Sue Neteller for Fraud

This whole Neteller thing is starting to get ridiculous. They no longer answer calls from the US, and keep referring US customers to a FAQ page that has no explanation on why they are not allowing withdrawals for US customers. I think they realize that they will never get the US business back, and don't care how much they are pissing us off. But, they are committing fraud which can be rectified in a court of law. At a minimum, if someone sues Neteller for their money back, Neteller will be required to explain why they can't disperse the funds to US citizens through something like a check by mail.

This is what I believe to be true, but who knows.

1) The US is waiving there stick at Neteller claiming bad things will happen to them if they disperse the funds to the US customers.

2) The US has blocked the banking system from making electronic transactions with Neteller.

Item (2) does not block mailed checks or peer to peer transfers which Neteller currently will not allow for US customers. So, item (1) must be the reason that Neteller is not dispersing funds.

So lets take a look at item (1). The US is threatening Neteller in some way to not disperse US funds (I believe this amount is well over 1 Billion Dollars). So the US is effectively freezing its own US citizens funds, when said citizens have not broken a single law. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? You should at a minimum be charged with some type of crime before your funds can be frozen/siezed. I know that the US is no where near today, what the founding fathers had in mind, but this is a bunch of BS.

Playing poker online is NOT illegal. You could make a case that this is covered by the wire act, but it would be hard to argue that the wire act applies to Internet connections that are not dial-up and never use a "wire" (phone line). Also, there is no precedent for using the wire act to go after online poker players. The US may believe that Neteller has committed crimes, but what did the users of their service do that was illegal? Nothing is the answer. My guess is that the US wants records of our transactions to see if they can get taxes out of us. This is no reason to tie up our funds. Again, in this country we are innocent until proven guilty, right? Where is the proof that we are guilty of anything? Where is the due process that is constitutionally required.

This is why someone needs to sue Neteller for Fraud. It is fraud BTW. They are holding our money and not dispersing it which is against the policies that were in effect at the time of the deposits. This is fraud on a huge level. The only case they can make is the US will not let them disperse the funds. But the US can't stop them from mailing us checks or doing peer to peer transfers. So they are doing this on their own to cover their asses. CYA all you want, but I want my Fawking money right now. If someone sues them this will all come out, and get resolved. My guess is after Neteller uses their excuse, the Judge will demand that the US let all US customers not accused of a crime to get their money out by check or other method. The US will be hard pressed to say all the funds are from tax evaders and needs to be frozen. Where is the proof, or preponderance of evidence that they can make that claim with. 90% of poker players lose money, and should not be required to pay any taxes. So possibly 10% are winners, but the Neteller records will not prove this one way or another. Bringing this case will force both the US and Neteller to come clean and will be the fastest way to get our money out.

So who is going to do it?

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13 Comments:

At 12:28 PM, Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

From what I understand..

1. You have no jurisdiction in a court case otherwise the US would have just pulled their asses into court already.

2. The US grabbed funds WHILE IN TRANSIT. I do not know if this is true but if so they could be locked up where Neteller can not get them.

Its almost useless to sue anyone anyways unless you are owed huge amounts of money.. no lawyer is going to take the case for free.. unless Jordon is not too busy jacking off on the weekends.. Unless it became a class action suit you would lose more money by suing then just biting the bullet.. Believe me I know I have been in this situation with an American company and that was bad enough..

I do agree however Neteller sucks balls and I hope they all are forced to suck an elephants ass.

That is all..

 
At 12:50 PM, Blogger Blinders said...

The US claims some sort of juristiction, thats why the founders are in jail. Lets sue them in the UK then. The funds siezed in transit were about 55M, and probably 95% of funds were not in transit. These other 95% of the funds are being fraudulantly held by Neteller IMO. I totally agree that it would make no sense for me to sue for 3k, but there have to be others with 500k+ frozen, that it would make a lot of sense. It might be worth it if you could get punative damages. I wish Jordan didn't jack-off so much. He could be a real help here.

 
At 2:05 PM, Blogger bayne_s said...

I am counting on Isaac to pay for the lawyer.


http://www.pokernews.com/live-reporting/video-gallery/isaac-haxton-stuck-800k-74.htm

I may also write to Sen. Obama to let him know I want to contribute to his campaign but I need to do it via peer-to-peer transfer on Neteller.

 
At 3:09 PM, Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

FWIW Blinders you keep talking about fraud but I can't imagine where the actionable fraud comes into play here. Believe me I hate Neteller more than the next guy, but you have to understand a few things. #1 if the funds were seized in transit, then Neteller doesn't have them anymore and your anger in those cases is directed at the wrong people. #2 if the U.S. has seized the funds at Neteller for investigation purposes, as was reported a couple of weeks back, then that right there is the reason why Neteller is not giving the money back -- Because the U.S. has seized the funds. Now, if you think you can sue a party under U.S. law because they are injuring you in some way, when it is the U.S. government's seizure of your property that is causing the injury, then you just don't understand how the legal system in this country works. The government is going to get their due, and their interests will take precedence over any tort-kind of claim like fraud from an individual U.S. citizen (or a group of such citizens).

Most importantly and as I've written about before, my own personal opinion is that Neteller never had all of our funds in "segregated bank accounts", that they were lying about that all along, and that when 35-50% of their entire base of deposits was immediately demanded to be withdrawn, they couldn't even come close to actually coming up with all that money because they didn't have it. That last part might be actionable fraud, but good luck trying to prove it.

I'm not sure what all the lawsuit talk is really about man. We don't really want a lawsuit, we just want our money back. I personally think the best argument for ever getting whatever money there actually is back is that the government has seized funds that are not used as gambling funds per se, since Neteller has uses other than online gambling fundage. In fact I can't believe that the government has seized everyone's Neteller funds just based on the online gambling thing. That is effing lame. But that's a complaint I have with our own government, not with Neteller.

Take it from me, if the U.S. has "seized" our funds, Neteller has no freedom to allow us to withdraw them, and petty things like "fraud" under the U.S. legal system mean nothing when the U.S. government is the party standing on the other side of the issue and forcing the withdrawals not to be permitted.

 
At 6:27 PM, Blogger smokkee said...

in short, you're hosed.

 
At 9:48 PM, Blogger Guin said...

I have mentioned on my blog that if you are able to transfer to another person then I might be able to help you out....

As a Canadian I can get money out and am willing to write you a cheque for the amount once I transfer the funds... takes a bit of trust but I am not out to rob a fellow blogger.

Let me know if you think that would help you with your untransferred funds.

 
At 10:01 PM, Blogger Blinders said...

Hoy,

The lawsuit is just a way to bring this all out in the open, and it is the only way to expedite this happening. For now Neteller is making a claim they can't pay us our money, but are not explaining why. A lawsuit forces their hand, as they must explain their actions to defend themselves. If it is indeed the US that is preventing this, then where is the due process that that us citizens are owed by our government. My guess is the judge will demand that Neteller release our funds and indemnify neteller for doing this. Or, at a minimum the US must justify it's siezure of US funds. If nobody does anything this will drag out for years and the money will be all gone at some point. Thats the point of the post. If we sit on our hands the money goes poof.

Lets say that I owed you 5k, but got sued by a third party. I could claim for years that I can't pay because of the third party lawsuit. You could wait, or demand immediate payment through a lawsuit of your own, and get this resolved immediatley. This is what I am suggesting, though I have no plans to do it myself.

Also, the US had no ability to "sieze" all of the funds. Some in transit may have been siezed, but the vast majority is under netellers control, this is where the fraud claim can come in. They may have an excuse, but I want to hear it, so we can attack the next issue (i.e. the unlawful siezure of funds by the US government if that is indeed the case)

 
At 10:10 PM, Blogger Blinders said...

guin,

Thanks, but all US accounts have been "decertified". No peer to peer transfers are allowed anymore. No way to get you the funds so you can help out. Thanks though.

 
At 8:58 AM, Blogger Hammer Player a.k.a Hoyazo said...

A couple quick things, Blinders. First, your analogy of you oweing me 5k is not analgous here, because that would be a claim between two individuals. In this case, the U.S. government, whose interests per the U.S. Constitution take precedence over any individual lawsuits, tort claims, etc., is the party prohibiting Neteller from transferring the funds. That's a key difference. If you owed me 5k, but the government officially "seized" the 5k from your accounts, then I could yell and scream about suing you all day till I'm blue in the face and unfortunately it wouldn't make a shit's worth of difference. The government's interest by law takes precedence even over my right to repayment from you.

Also, you keep saying that "the U.S. government had no ability to 'seize' all the funds." That is just wrong man, I don't know how else to say it. The government could and did seize the funds. It just doesn't make sense to keep saying the government didn't have the ability to do this, when they've already done it. Obviously they had the ability, because they did it. It's too late to go back on that now. They did have the ability to seize the funds, whether it's the funds "in transit" or the funds still at Neteller, and once that seizure happened, the funds were no longer under Neteller's control like you keep saying. That's what the seizure means. They're not under Neteller's control anymore; they've been seized by the U.S. government. So now, they're under the government's control, not Neteller, and Neteller is no longer free to disburse those funds to anyone unless the government specifically authorizes them to do so.

Again, believe me nobody hates what Neteller has done more than me, and I'm losing enough money at Neteller to care about, but your beef should be with our government and not with Neteller. The government is the reason we're not getting our money back now, as they are in fact the ones who "control" those funds since the seizure. Hopefully somebody gets into power sometime soon who cares about doing what's right and giving us back our effing money.

 
At 12:27 PM, Blogger Blinders said...

Hoy,

I agree with most of what you are saying. This is the US gov's fault. I still maintain that most funds were not siezed. Do you still see a balance in your Neteller account? If the US had actually tasen the money, you would not see a balance. If there are any legitimate vendors that take Neteller, of which I am only aware of one that sells alcohol, you could spend your balance right now. Peer to peer transfers were allowed just a few days ago, and people could have moved funds out that way, so the US did NOT sieze those funds. They may be insisisting that the funds remain frozen, but they really do not have the authority to do this.

The lawsuit forces the US to reveal what they have done, and then we can look at if it was lawful for them to freeze our accounts. My guess if that that this is NOT lawful, and the funds will be released once this has been determined. You act as if the US government has unlimited powers, but the powers are clearly limited by the constitution. If what they have done is unconstitutional, they simply can't do it, no matter how powerful they think they are.

IMO, they have violated the right to due process, and the concept of innoicent until proven guilty to name a few. Great back and forth though Hoy.

 
At 11:29 AM, Blogger Christer said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

 
At 11:48 AM, Blogger Christer said...

Just a thought on this...
What if you were to transfer the money to someone in another country outside the US? And then let them transfer the funds back to you, but to your PayPal or so...

Ex. I live in Sweden, I hold a certified account with Neteller and Paypal. We would agree, over a written contract, that you give me a percentage of the transferred funds for helping you out. You transfer the funds to my Neteller, and I then transfer them out of the Neteller-system to my local bank-account. From there I transfer the money further on to my PayPal-account and send you the funds when available.

This might seem as a lot of work for nothing, and PayPal, Neteller and my Bank has their own exchange-rates between the system...a wild guess would that you could get 75-90% of your funds out this way, by using a "middle man".

In light of where you stand now, what alternative do you have, really?

And yes, you have to be careful and do your homework well, before you let someone else get their hands on your funds. Butthis would actually work...as long as no one tells Neteller about it...

I would consider this as a regular business venture....US Citizens with unreachable funds in Neteller-accounts can get them back through other countries. I could set up somekind of "freelance-forum" for this single purpose, where the "traders" could earn points from being honest with their transactions, as a step towards keeping any scammers away.

Anyone interested? Send me a message at info -at- stenungsund.nu

 
At 7:06 AM, Blogger Fred b said...

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